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March 01, 2010

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Further reading regarding inter-caste marriages in India: http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100219/FOREIGN/702189856/1103

This article was quite helpful in understanding of the developement of caste system in India. Thank you Namit sir..

I would like to tell you that while your article is excellent in summing up the facts on Indian society from the pre-Aryan times till now using the analysis of Modern Western Scholars on Sociology, History, Economics, etc., it lacks in a treatment of Indian thought from ancient times on issues like division in the society apart from the thought of Hindu lawmaker's and authors of the Epics and Puranas. Indian Philosophy emerged with the Upanishads where moorings on caste and gender equality can be seen, and then the two non-Hindu religio-philosophical schools (Buddhism and Jainism) which emerged took these issues more seriously and started practising their ideals of equality in real life. (The Carvaka school’s literature is too scanty, being only available from their mutilated representations in Hindu and Buddhist works, to tell on the social views of this school apart from some guesses we can make on implications of the schools views on metaphysics and epistemology.) The history of India from roughly the fifth century B.C.E. to roughly the seventh or the eighth century C.E. is one of constant interaction (often peaceful) of ideas between orthodox and liberal minded people and there is enough reason to assume that things were far volatile then in the society with regards to caste and gender discriminations than in the mediaeval and colonial times. I believe modern Western sociologists and historians often tend to ignore this interaction part of Ancient Indian Intellectual History. Whatever conclusions they have come to (starting from colonial times) on our contemporary society is absolutely correct or largely correct, but if they need to write on the history of caste-related thought in India, they need to study deeply the philosophy and social thought related to Buddhism, Jainism, the period of Hinduism known as counter-reformation (products of which among others has Mahabharata which has extant talks on social issues and contains heterogeneous and often mutually contradictory views on matters related to social equality, but most often has debates penetrating deep into the matter but concluding in a slightly orthodox-tilted answer to a social issue). Honestly, the door which was opened by William Jones for the East and which enabled the World to get the writings of Schopenhauer, Emerson, Thoreau, Max Muller, Romain Rolland, etc. was often made closed by some biased misinformed opinions of Euro-centric thinkers and you see a continuous misinterpretation of Indian thought in both the Continental school members like Hegel and Marx and Anglo-American Analytical school members like Russell. Amartya Sen's book "The Argumentative Indian" has tried to present (though somewhat superficially) this forgotten rational side of the History of India. It was a sad turn of history which ousted the dominant anti-caste religion of India, Buddhism, from India which allowed Hindu orthodoxy to run unchecked and liberal thoughts arising within the Hindu fold failed to be assertive enough except for the short span of a century in North India and Bengal when the Bhakti movement (aligned with the Islamic Sufi movement) brought some relief from extreme oppression. As someone belonging to the elite class of India, you have made yourself fully acquainted with Modern Ideas and then your conscience is making you think on India's miserable discrimination, and naturally to be critical of it. But why don't you think that your kind of conscience and your exposure to liberal thought (or at least some kind of liberal thought) was to be found in at least some of your forefathers and what we see today in the Indian society may not have accumulated straight from the time that the Aryans came to India but maybe from a much later period (possibly two thousand and a few hundred years after arrival of the Aryans to India). It is an irony that the land which showed maximum discrimination in the society in the whole world produced people for the first time in whole history of Humankind who thought of others (including subhuman creatures) as nothing but an extension of one’s self. Why I say this in connection with an article designed to bring awareness amongst modern Indian elites on discrimination existing in the Indian society in the most cruel form is that the elites of India can be more easily made liberal by showing to them the thoughts of the most liberal among their own forefathers than by mere criticism of a modern Indian or a modern Westerner who these elites may feel to belong to the 'opposite camp'. While you think that Rammohan Roy, Tagore and Gandhi did not completely criticize caste but wanted to make the best reformations possible within the existing framework, in reality they did decry on caste and at least Tagore was greatly in favour of total rejection of caste but these three people all believed in a cure of problems from within our minds and not in bloody revolutions. When we (whether a member of the class of elites or a member of the class of non-elites) criticize the dominant elites' attitude, don't you think our criticism should also include and stress on the sayings of these liberal forefathers of the Indian elites and show that they are falling short of their worthy forefathers? If someone thinks all the Hindu philosophers and authors of the epics and Puranas to be intellectually dishonest for not rejecting age-old orthodoxy right away, at least we should speak of Buddha, Mahavira, and many Buddhist, Jain thinkers and Bhakti-Sufi practitioners so that an elite Indian need not feel that eye-opening has to happen only by getting schooled in Modern (and albeit Western) ideology.

Finally, two words on your statements on IIT graduates and engineers from elite classes and on reservation. When you say that the notion of excellence in education of techies and MBAs completely ignore knowledge in the Arts and Social Sciences (in which I agree completely with you, but would like to add the Fundamental Sciences and Natural Philosophy also just in light of what is happening today), do you also agree that today's researchers on Social Sciences also ignore what was called Arts and which was often elitist in thought (though not elitist in social views)? In other words, do you recognize that today's Social Scientists may also be lacking in talent compared to giant thinkers of the periods from the Enlightenment to the Early/Mid Twentieth Century, that they also may be somehow lacking an overall view of the entire human society which is essential to give a call to one section of the society for the betterment of another? Finally, while you are absolutely correct about the plight of the lower caste people in the rural areas (who may be rightly called by the strong word 'dalits'), don't you see that many of these lower caste people in urban and semi-urban areas who have been made 'aware' by politicians have started to show enmity to everyone from the elite class irrespective of his or her personal inclination towards the liberal or the conservative views on social equality, and while this is natural, it is not healthy and it also needs to be tackled and ignoring this would be equally dangerous? Also, you need to make a note that many of the urban scheduled caste members who are taking the privilege of the reservation system have been liberated one or two generation back and as such needs no more help. As long as we discuss about these pitfalls of human misuse of the reservation system and suggest remedies to that, we cannot claim loudly that reservation is nothing but a means to remove some age-old evils of our society. Also we need to note that many of these now educated and privileged urban scheduled caste members show the same attitude towards the uneducated and under-privileged rural scheduled caste members as is to be seen in the upper caste people. The factor of misuse of the reservation system is still, by large, minor compared to the gross miseries still arising from caste discrimination, but still we cannot ignore this factor when we give a message to the elites to say that their view of reservation and its need should be informed.

I say all this to tell you that in reality, I see now that the Indian society is getting polarized into a uncannily orthodox, irrational section consisting of the 'elite's and another section extremely critical of the former which consists of the enlightened members of the lower classes and few elites who want to mark themselves as conscientious and are not afraid to be labelled as radical. We must realize that whether things continue in this way for eternity or a war is waged between these two opposing classes, the best thing to happen is to really have a softening of the minds of each and everyone amongst us and finally to see reality in a truly knowledgeable way or at least to act with kindness.

Anonymous,

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I don't disagree with much of what you say. I will try to respond to a couple of points you have raised. In your first paragraph, I think your central argument can be captured by this sentence:

When we (whether a member of the class of elites or a member of the class of non-elites) criticize the dominant elites' attitude, don't you think our criticism should also include and stress on the sayings of these liberal forefathers of the Indian elites and show that they are falling short of their worthy forefathers?

I agree and have written elsewhere that the best kind of social change is the one that uses internal resources, familiar cultural exemplars, and appeals to one's own higher cultural ideals. I think Ambedkar did this well with his emphasis on the ideal of equality in Buddhism and his own conversion to it. But this becomes more challenging if the dominant elites have no interest in so many of the ancient Indian exemplars you mention. Do they care much for Mahavira and the Bhakti poets anymore? So while, as you suggest, this strategy should be used whenever possible, we have to acknowledge its limits, and mix it up with the best new exemplars, inspirations, and strategies drawn from today's world. I suspect you see it the same way.

On your second para, I have written about reservations elsewhere (here and here) and don't have much new to add right now. I think we have to begin any debate on reservations by temporarily separating the idea of reservations from its current practice. We have to first figure out if it makes sense, why, and how much (I like Jayati Ghosh on this). Once we know our common ground, we can talk about implementation, such that the abuses and corruption are minimized and the beneficiaries are not just the relatively privileged members of the lower castes (the creamy layer clause already exists). I also think that speaking of reservations as a benefit for the lower castes alone is less than helpful. These are our fellow citizens, and when they benefit, we benefit too. It is no less a policy designed to benefit the upper castes, and helps them become part of a more inclusive society. I doubt that this view is about to become wildly popular though!

Also we need to note that many of these now educated and privileged urban scheduled caste members show the same attitude towards the uneducated and under-privileged rural scheduled caste members as is to be seen in the upper caste people.

It is well known that hierarchy persists in the mind up and down the chain in India. There is always someone beneath you. This parallels the experience of African-Americans, who too discriminated based on skin color among themselves. The goal of reservations is not to make enlightened thinkers, but to make more equitable a society's access to its rewards and privileges. In parallel, we have to target the value system that supports hierarchy in the mind, whether among the upper or lower castes. However, the upper castes have fewer excuses for holding on to that idea, and I personally prefer to focus on them. That said, as I wrote in one of the linked articles above,

... it is very important that Indians see reservations as only one in a bag of tricks to achieve greater social and economic equality. The stubborn persistence of inequalities that derive from illiteracy, hunger and malnutrition, lack of healthcare and sanitation, uneven economic development, and lax law enforcement suggests that India is nowhere close to realizing Ambedkar’s inspiring vision of democracy.

In your last para, the polarization you mention rings true. I too wish the "softening of the minds" and kindness would happen somehow on both sides. But you'll agree that we are in no position to advocate patience and perseverance to those who have suffered for so long. Raising a ruckus is sometimes helpful to get noticed. Few pernicious ideas can be defeated without a bitter fight.

Namit,

In human history, not negligible in number were people who wished to argue for the sake of argument even when their topic of argument was something pertaining to human morality or other issues connected to the human society and not metaphysics or epistemology. These people were justly criticized. While I have a conscious desire not to indulge in the pleasure of arguing and try to guard myself from retorting to each and every statement I find disagreeable, I feel that this time I need to say something about some of your comments.

You said that Ambedkar spoke of Buddha and himself converted to Buddhism. Honestly, I have very little knowledge about Ambedkar. But one basic difference I have noticed between social activists of modern time and Buddha or Mahavira is that for the latter two, there was a search for some metaphysical truth which brings liberation of our mind and preaching that truth and the path to attain it to people. Now the path which they found and preached entailed non-discrimination and therefore they preached that also and saw that all the disciples follow the same. In their case, they were awakened by their own misery which was not due to the cause of any social injustice which they had been facing but due to the realization of the common fate of death which at one time or another any human being irrespective of his or her social position has to face. Once afflicted by this misery, Buddha is said to have noticed other kinds of misery on leaving his regal home like the miseries of poor farmers who he felt were exploited (an easy source of this information is Asvaghosa's Buddhacarita if you would not want to read Buddha's life from the Pali cannon). On the other hand, the social activists of modern times often have an origin for their thought in Enlightenment Period Social Philosophers Russeau and Voltaire and their followers in the Nineteenth centuries. While the best thinkers of the Enlightenment period who dealt not only with Social and Moral Philosophy but also with Metaphysics and Epistemology came to the conclusion that agnosticism would be the best stance a rational being would choose, many others felt no need for any metaphysical and epistemological explorations at all and they decided that desire is normal and therefore equality should be imposed on the society externally. This is a great deviation from Buddha and Mahavira, though not from Charvaka. I would say Gandhi on the other hand when he praised the Bhakti and Sufi movement leaders did it much more with a true appreciation for what these people stood for. But as you have rightly pointed out, Gandhi also was not fully aware that these Bhakti leaders' way is not suitable for modern world and he had failed to realize that when post- Industrial Revolution ways gets established in a country where the essence of spiritualism was already almost lost in the ill-doings of a hierarchical society, the same hierarchy gets so much deeply entrenched that only attempting to go back to our spiritual purity and preaching that to everyone may not work very effectively. But that does not mean that modernity for Indians (and Asians at large) would have to necessarily exclude even the best part of the prevalent thoughts of our ancient times.

I would say with some hesitation that post-Tagore I do not see a single person who can help us combine our pre-modern values with contemporary Western values without any contradiction and I myself go through a lot of struggle in this process of modernization without any guidance and feel I am losing something in the process of gaining something else not because it is inevitable but just because of my sheer inability to see how to keep both at the same time. This arises from the fact that Tagore and most of his lofty contemporaries had not seen through the end of the Second World War and the post-War developments and though they had seen the First World War and post-war movements like Dadaism or Nazism or Fascism (sorry to utter the last two with the first one but I think the complexity of the first is connected to the complexity which gave rise to the last two), typical reactions (in different directions) of the turbulent twentieth century, they had not been able to fully overcome the trauma and say something which would help us understand all the post-Second World War developments. The transition from the time of Immanuel Kant to a division of the Anglo-American Analytical and the Continental Schools of Philosophy (the first coupled with Science and virtually divorced from the Arts and the latter its opposite) shows a great human tragedy where Science, Mathematics, Logic, Epistemology got completely dissociated from fields which would discuss on subtleties of our feelings (anubhuti) and ideas of social justice. In India, the situation is worse since there is no one like Russell or Bergman in our country to whose call the whole nation or a very large section of it responds to like they did in case of Gandhi. (I cannot say that Satyajit Ray reached even a tenth of the Bengali population, leave aside the Indian population.) In such a situation, while we may feel a very strong need to 'focus' on certain issues because some things have been wrong for 'so long', we should also not forget the less immediate but the true goal and remember even if we achieve something by hitting the powerful yet blind people, it is perhaps our failure that we could not find a better way of enlightening them instead of hitting them.

With regards to your words that enlightening the lower castes would enrich the upper castes also, I would agree completely. But by enlightenment I do not understand just the ability to study applied science and technology and get good jobs and gain thereby an apparently coveted lifestyle. And while I see that a class has suffered so long and further delay in their emancipation would be a great threat, I feel a greater threat would be awaiting entire mankind if the excessive specialization of our minds (I am talking of the numerous office goers all over the world) to allow us to do our specific jobs more effectively and the great degradation of our tastes cannot be reversed. In other words, I believe that if all the oppressed persons of today become like today’s privileged people so that the World has none who is oppressed, if everyone would become specialized in some field of applied science or technology (whether engineering or biotechnology or medicinal technology or management science or something else), and their culture would remain the mechanical one as it has become now, then the World would perhaps be a place that would be worse than the Eighteenth Century World where hierarchy was a bitter reality but at least few people had imagination and thought and something which can be called culture. I think once one starts hating the mechanical life which has become the norm from the late twentieth century, slowly one regains his or her real self and then naturally becomes eager to remove social discriminations also.

Having said all this, I would like to confess that I am a very indecisive person and sometimes I think that my mental process of attaching values to certain ideas (like, ‘fights should be best fought internally, not externally’ or ‘Being mechanical is even worse than being vicious’ ) is perhaps coming from self-love or something very subjective and not due to my respect for objectivity and reason and therefore I would someday face a situation stressing the need for reevaluation of these ideas. If you would still feel that your discussion with me has made you think again on something, even if that thing is of very little significance, I would be happy.

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